Debating Joe Twelve-Pack

First, the posters:


I too am frustrated that the Browns are sort of starting over with a new system and substantially new coaching staff in a Division with two dominant playoff teams. Seems like one step foreward, two steps back, year after year.


But as usual, some posters I've read have lost their damn minds (or don't have adult human ones to lose).


Well, I'll activate Joe Twelve-Pack now, and he can represent all you idjuts:


Joe: If Mike Holmgren intended to install the West Coast offense and a 4-3 defense all along, and control it, then he should be fired for retaining Mangini and his staff. This sets us a year behind schedule, and it's incompetance.


ME: Hey, can I get your source? None of mine knew that that was his plan all along! He had the rest of us fooled into thinking that the last four wins of 2009 and his interviews had impressed him, like he said!


Joe: Don't be so naaive! Holmgren is over his head as a GM! He has a good record as a head coach, but was a dismal failure as a GM!


ME: That's it: You can't say "dismal" any more. Be careful or I'll confiscate the rest of your adjectives. Anyway, his record as a Head Coach AND GM is indeed mediocre. He was a first-time GM and was doing it while also coaching the team and mostly running his offense. Now he's focussed on the GM part, and Tom Heckert takes a lot of that off him.

The logical assumption is that he learned from his experience, and with outstanding support and an abundance of time will do well. DUH.


Joe: Then why doesn't anybody want to come here? They still don't have an offensive coordinator!


ME: Again, your sources. Two teams' staffs are still off-limits, and IMO the best candidate is on Green Bays' staff. Three other teams still haven't filled their OC positions. You expected all the coaching slots to be filled up in the first week, or what?

Jauron is a former head coach, and appears to be their top choice for that position. He had other offers, but signed here quickly.


Joe: That's another thing! Here we go, starting all over again with a whole new defense! For all this time they've been building a 3-4 and now they've got all the wrong people for a 4-3!


ME: It's with the deepest regret that I kind of agree with you, blind squirrel. But again, we're ass uming a lot. First, Jauron will most likely transition over time. Rogers, if healthy and in freaking shape, is an awesome 4-3 tackle (NOT END! NOT IN THE 4-3! TACKLE!!!). Roth, if retained, could play defensive end. Rubin has surprised everyone with his quickness and range, and projects as a very good defensive tackle for Jauron's two-gap. Several of the current defensive ends can also play 4-3 defensive end. Benard can't, but could be a great situational rusher.

Jauron likes big lines--


Joe: "blah blah blah"! They need like four linemen and have to replace all the linebackers! It's a three or four-year project!


ME: And there goes the baby--screaming all the way to the street along with the bathwater. The sky is falling again.

Unfortunately, among your depressing, delusional rantings, you accidentally nailed some reality.

More because of age than people, they do need defensive linemen, but they may retain some solid hold-the-fort guys already on the roster.

Linebacker is more of a problem, but Fujita (for at least one more season) and Gocong are two guys who can play in the 4-3.

Joe: Gocong can't cover! That's why the Eagles dumped him!

Me: I didn't say he and Fujita were All-Pros. I said they could play.

Joe: He sucks!

Me: You know, you're a real master of understatement, Joe.

Joe: Thanks I think. But your flattery won't make the fact that Shurmer is Holmgren's puppet and the Browns are three years away from contention again!

Me: Take a pill, Joe. Position-by-position, the offensive line needs another young guy to develop into a right tackle but is pretty solid. The tight ends are excellent. While I agree that they do need a "playmaker", the current wide recievers will be much more effective in a true west coast hybrid in which sharp routes, size, and YAC is at a premium.
Naturally, you can't comprehend the continued existance of Carlton Mitchell, or the fact that he has massive big-play potential. Remember, he came out early and was very raw, so he wasn't ready. But he's been practicing, and might be this season.

Hillis is as good a reciever as a back can be and will prosper (and maybe last longer) in a West Coast. They need a waterbug type like the guys they stupidly dumped last season to take some of it off him, but a healthy Hardesty is great depth.

McCoy should be better in his second season with real-game experience, and especially so in a West Coast, which fits him prefectly. Many of the comparisons are lame, but the most accurate ones are Jeff Garcia, Drew Brees, and Joe Montana.

In other words, the offensive core is already here. The big play guy who can take the top off a defense may not be here--or might be, in the form of Rodney Mitchelfield. A healthy Luvao projects well at right guard, and Womack and the other guys can, if neccessary, hold the fort for one more season at RT.

Joe: McCoy crashed and burned---

Me: Yeah. That's pretty common with quarterbacks. The defensive coordinators get a bead on their tendancies and figure out how to screw them up. The they have to learn and adapt. Happened to Peyton Manning...hell everybody except Dan Marino, and including Rottenburgers. Big deal.

Joe: But he can't play in bad wea--

Me: Oh yeah, you need an arm to compete up here in the frozen north! Just look at all the great ones. Brian the Cannon Sipe, Bill the Rocket Nelson, Frank the bazooka Ryan...then there's the guys who beat us up here, like Montana---

Joe: Homer!

Me: Ad hominums aside, as I was saying, the defense is where the retooling will happen. The secondary isn't bad. First off, Wright didn't suck nearly as bad as you hallucinate. He's the fastest guy on the field, so when he comes off his reciever to go for the ball, he shows up in the frame a lot. That makes it easy for guys like you to hop around and point at him, like it's his fault.
Sure, he did have a mediocre season, but it's no cooincidence that there was a rookie safety learning as he went. Sometimes Wright released a guy, or gave him room, like he was supposed to, and Ward wasn't where he was supposed to be. Nor does one mediocre season negate all previous seasons for a cornerback in his prime.
Brown is getting older, but might move to safety and be great there. Haden is a stud. Adams is a great pinch-hitter/utility guy. It's not perfect, but a solid core to build on. The secondary isn't part of the rebuilding project. They'll try to upgrade it, but it's not bad as-is.

So of the whole team, we're talking about the front seven. Seven out of twenty two. If you could be rational, you would comprehend this.

And of those seven, there are Rubin, maybe Rogers, Fujita, Gocong, Benard as a situational guy, Roth maybe at DE, that Kaluka SS/LB type for coverage/depth, Rodney Schaeferingfield, and even youngsters like Ivey, who might do much better as a DT than as a nose tackle.

Is it going to take three years to sign or draft maybe three linebackers and three defensive linemen, even assuming none of the deveopmentals emerge?

Joe: You and your rose-colored glasses! Anyway, this is Cleveland. Nobody wants to play here or coach here.

Me: They just signed four more assistants, and they're really excellent. Especially the new QB Coach. He was in demand as a coordinator, but took the same job he had here. That's partly because he'll be helping Shurmer manage the overall offense, as well as doing for McCoy what he did with Rapelessburger.

Joe: You can't turn a pigs' ear into a---

Okay I've just put Joe back to sleep in my subconscious.

Look, I agree with Ben Watson. The first thing the Browns need to do is stick with a coaching staff. I also can't deny that installing new systems with a second-year quarterback and 3-4 personel is...just par for the course.

The Browns almost certainly won't contend this coming season. I remember saying that two seasons ago, and then predicting that they would contend in 2010.

Yep. Back to the drawing board again--two years down the crapper and starting over.

With me, though, football is a game, and I like the process. I like the building and developing.

I like Shurmer. I used to love Bud Carson, another 4-3 guy, so I can get used to Jauron, I hope.

For me, I will be watching McCoy take the next steps towards Breeshood, or at least Garciahood. I can't wait to see if Mitchell will step up and be a playmaker. I want to see Rubin at DT. I look foreward to watching progress and development.

Shurmer and company have absolutely nothing to do with anything that happened in the past, and deserve a clean slate.

And I do have hope. The offense might be one player away from being pretty damn good. I mean, here in reality. While the defense will have trouble at first, the offense might come out of the gates at full speed, and make the team competitive.

And something else has changed: it used to be that the 3-4 had an advantage in drafting because most teams ran the 4-3. The DE/LB types were available later because of it. Now, that has gone in reverse. The majority of teams are running the 3-4 now, so the real pure linebackers, and to a lesser extent some DT's and DE's will tend to slide more.

I think Heckert and Jauron will be able to make the most of this, and get some good front seven guys in here.

We'll see.

My early prediction: 16-0. I'll update this as more data comes in.

Shurmer

Well, I guess Ryan is a GMF. Some of the non-ex athletes/GMs/coaches on NFL Radio declared that Ryan and Shurmer never could have gotten along. I wonder where they got that? Why not? Ryan is brash and Shurmer is quiet, ergo they'd hate eachother? These clowns crack me up.

But I did pick up in his news conference that he will be heavily involved in picking his own staff, and that makes sense. I'm sure that outside of the soap operas that play in some commentators' heads, it was nothing personal.

Looking foreward, those who actually know what they're talking about unanimously like this hire. Several of these guys on NFL Radio worked with him--more with his uncle Fritz. Pat Ryan even played against him when he was a center at MSU.

These guys aren't making assumptions about his ability to develop quarterbacks, as many tend to do. They confirm that HE had probably the most to do with getting rookie QB Bradford off to a solid NFL start, and he will be very helpful to Colt McCoy as he enters his second year.

Jauron now looks strong for defensive coordinator. His experience as a head coach would help Shurmer a lot. Shurmer could first focus on installing his new offense, and getting the ball rolling, while Jauron and (I hope) Seely could handle the rest. Shurmer would be the nominal head coach, but would have the luxury of just coordinating at first.

Jauron has been a 4-3 guy. I vastly prefer the much more unpredictable and adaptable 3-4, but the guy has had a lot of success with his defenses.

But those who think he'd come in and instantly install a full-blown 4-3 are once again narcissisticly projecting their dumbassitude onto much smarter people. Nor am I even certain that a 4-3 is a given at any time.

Remember Marty? He ran both a 4-3 and 3-4. It depended on his personnel. I hope Jauron is like that, if they hire him.

Benard would only be a situational passrusher on a 4-3. Roth would have to fight for a DE spot, and lacks the height. Schaeffer might do much better as a 4-3 DE--Rubin could play DT. Will the aging Rogers be back? Gocong is another short guy. He was just coming on strong after escaping Philly's 4-3. Fujita can play either, but is better in a 3-4. Jackson could play MLB for sure...but this is much closer to 3-4 than 4-3...

Well I've got a headache okbye

Rex's Twin Brother

First things first: If I had not been on sabbadical, I would have updated my win/loss projection to 5-11.

I can't rationally argue that Mangini should have been retained. It's not so much the losses to the Stoolers and the Ratbirds. The Browns were beat up pretty bad, these are both mature, elite teams, and McCoy is, after all, a rookie.

But the other losses were hard to take, and the buck has to stop at Mangini. While since this in Cleveland, I sort of expect Mangini to go on to win consecutive Superbowls somewhere else, I would have fired him myself. I stand self-corrected.

As for his and other coaching replacements, I like Shurmer myself. Shurmer did what he did this season with a rookie quarterback and weak talent.

But just a minute. Why not Rob Ryan? How different can he be from Rex as a Head coach, especially since he can consult with him?

I know, simpletonians will point out his defensive stats. As if he had Pittsburgh/Baltimore talent and depth on his defense? It's so convenient to ignore little things like that. Rookie safety and corner, Fujita knocked out, guys off the street starting on the line late in the season--let's not let the facts get in the way of a good lynching.

Consensus has it that Rob will probably be a head coach after next season. One reason these legitimate experts expect that is that they expect a couple more draft picks and free agents to help him get there. Duh.

Promote this tough-yet-beloved leader to head coach, and just get him two coordinators!

Ryan wasn't part of Homgren's old crew. Why is it assumed that Holmgren is a nepotist on steroids, especially when he gave Daboll and Mangini a shot? 4-3, 3-4 do you really think he cares, when this is the AFC central and most of the dominating defenses for several years have been 3-4's? Just how utterly stupid do you think Big Mike is?

Mike picks the coordinators and, along with Rex, helps the charismatic Rob Ryan along as a Head Coach. Now we've got a west coast hybrid that should help the current wide recievers and running backs. (Not that there weren't elements of the west coast with Daboll).

With an excellent support system and solid coordinators, this is the perfect environment to give Rob his head coaching start.

Sure, he makes the big decisions, but ask his players about Rob. He listens. It's not "my way or the highway", like it is with some other guys. He'd likewise let the coordinators do their jobs, and just teach, manage, and inspire. And the whole team would run through walls for him.

You'd rather watch Ryan go be a head Coach somewhere else one season later.

Whatever.